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Off The Record: How Studios Subliminally Silence Women
Grace Banks , May 20th, 2017 06:06

Producer, engineer and musician Grace Banks argues that recording studios are all-too-often male dominated and even hostile to women, from outright misogyny to the subtle messages in the buildings themselves. What might be done to change this?

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Early on in my music studio career, I had a job as an assistant engineer for an all-male band. They had an insult for anyone who fucked up: 'girl'. It was banter, of course, but, it made me feel bad each time I heard it. Occasionally they would glance at me, remembering I was in the room, and I got the impression it made them feel bad, too.

It was said unthinkingly, a hangover of a society that, as a certain Always advert riffed on, associates doing things 'like a girl' with doing them badly, and a symptom of a music culture still dominated by men. This undertone persisted with the annoyance of an elusive ground hum in almost every studio I would go to – it was often unnoticeable and, on the surface, people were usually polite. A few things would always give it away: the disparaging remark about a colleague whose success "must be down to whom she was sleeping with," or the "too geeky" conversation that was apologised for once a female was present.

Much has been written about sexism in the music industry, whether it is Grimes citing 'mansplaining' or Bjork discussing her work being credited to male collaborators. I could give plenty of examples of overt sexism I encounter on a daily basis. I could write about the times people have mansplained guitar amps to me, postulated that women are intrinsically less capable of grasping music theory, objectified me at work and then told me I should not have risked making my boss feel awkward by calling it out. I could tell you about the time I was working as a live sound engineer setting up for a gig when a piece of gear failed; a random guy walked over and said "hey, I have no experience in sound but I could try to figure out what is wrong if you want." Seriously?! Would anyone go up to a car mechanic at work and say this?

Notably, for the first time last year, entries to the British Composer Awards were judged anonymously and the number of women making the shortlist more than doubled. Similarly, when the major US orchestras implemented blind auditions, female membership soared. It turns out that we do like music made by women; we just don’t know it.

Much of this unconscious bias plays out under the radar. Upon hiring me one rehearsal studios owner warned that when clients need assistance and they find a woman on shift, they will ask, "is there anyone who can help me with x?" When there's a man on shift the client will ask 'can you help me with x?' Subtle but it sends a message – one of trust and confidence, expectation and normalisation - one which, accumulatively, when repeated day in day out, matters.

A recording engineer told me he noticed something interesting. When he is too busy to take on a job and so recommends that clients work with me instead, they will say that they came to the studio because we particularly wanted to work with him. Nothing sexist there, right? Except that when he recommends a male engineer (at this point the clients know nothing about us but our names) they tend to be open to the suggestion. This phenomenon is well documented. Recent studies, in which CVs which were identical in all but name, revealed that male applicants, despite being no more competent, were rated significantly higher and offered higher starting salaries and more mentoring.       
There are other messages within the dominant and at times hyper-glorified male presence in recording studio environments. How do they affect the creative process? The difference between feeling that I belong or am an impostor, of feeling supported or undermined – these affect my performances, whether I choose to voice opinions and the quality of my work, whether as musician, sound engineer or music producer. Environmental factors leading to such feelings can be unquantifiable and subliminal but they are, nevertheless, there. It was one studio, in particular, that made me realise this.

By the front door hung a picture several feet high of Roman Polanski, near to which was a similarly imposing image of Woody Allen. It struck me that these men had something in common; they had been in the news in relation to sexual abuse. Was it a strange coincidence? Or perhaps this juxtaposition manifested something more significant.

An array of typical icons were displayed, Jimi Hendrix, Chuck Berry, Jack Kerouac... Then finally: a picture of a woman. She was the first thing you saw when you walked into the main recording room, she was gazing at you when you were in the control room listening to the musicians. She was anonymous and she was naked. This is a place for men, she stated. The studio had a theme: this is a place for men to be comfortable, to be wonderful; where men may abuse people, even, and still be lauded. Ultimately, this is a place for men.

I contemplated how it might influence the two women who were recording, that day – and, ultimately, their music. I thought of Professor Shelley Correll and her fascinating demonstration that people tend to fulfill stereotypes more when they are made aware, even subliminally, of them. I also thought of the research suggesting that feelings of being sexually objectified deplete confidence and inhibit cognitive focus. Perhaps those two women we were recording were unlikely to play their best, after all.

In her talk, Professor Correll explains that when someone is shown a positive or negative stereotype about themselves it affects their performance, respectively. Two groups were given a spatial ability test; the first had been exposed to a negative stereotype, the second group a positive one. Those in the second group performed 14% better than those in the first. However, when asked whether the stereotype had had any influence on their performance, 90% believed it had not.

If subliminal messages and stereotypes affect our performance without us even knowing it, presumably musicians can suffer or benefit from this, too. Add the fact that associating a person with a dominant status encourages dominant behaviour, and the studio power dynamics are susceptible to some serious slippage. An episode of QI demonstrated quite sweetly that labeling someone as 'leader' tends to induce more assertive behaviour, and the famed Stanford Prison experiment of 1971 took this to a sinister extreme. Surrounded by images of powerful, successful men (and subservient women) might a guy feel emboldened to push his own vision more? Although hard to determine causality, it seems to be a particular and common frustration among female musicians, producers and engineers.

Among the many I have spoken to about all this, themes around the nuances of studio environments which discouraged them and reduced autonomy over their work cropped up with striking regularity. Having their creative ideas dismissed as objectively wrong was all too common. Several great female musicians confided they have abandoned recording projects because the producer simply would not listen to them. And one producer was overheard warning the pianist that the client who was about to arrive had 'a lot of opinions'. Unfortunately, there is a sense that an idea from a woman is something to be wary of, not excited by.

A fundamental asset of any recording facility is the ability to make artists comfortable. Studio owner and editor of Tape Op magazine, Larry Crane told me, “creating a nurturing environment where artists feel free to express themselves is important.” Producers often describe a large part of their work as psychology. After all, the most sure-fire way to make a great-sounding record is to work with great-sounding artists - and a comfortable, inspired artist is usually a better one. But are the intended 'comforts' of the studio world skewed towards men and actually detrimental to women?

The dozens of female musicians I have spoken to about this subject tend to agree; whether through a lack of sanitary bins, a shortage of women in creative or technical roles, or an absence of images celebrating female creators, many studios fall short of being a good host. Studios salute the same artists over and over again: Joe Meek (who, incidentally, killed his landlady), Bob Dylan and David Bowie... far fewer celebrate Bjork, Patti Smith or Delia Derbyshire. The sense that studios are places for men is reinforced subliminally and regularly.

Male perspectives and tastes have shaped our musical heritage. Out of the five albums topping Rolling Stone Magazine's list, 'The Greatest Albums Of All Time' only one had any female involvement at all in the recording process. According to SoundGirls.org, only 5% of audio engineers are female, while an estimated 6% of the Music Producers' Guild members are female.

Culturally, this matters. It means that every piece of music you listen to is likely to have been either created entirely by men or filtered through the opinions of men; what women want to say is diluted or absent. Producer Steve Albini puts it this way: “Any time you take half the people, cut half the potential participants out of a scenario, then you're half as likely to have your chance of finding the best person for the job or finding the unique insight”.

Currently, commercial recording facilities set up by women are almost unheard of but these might be an important part of the answer. The good news is there is a swell of women and girls keen to do the studio stuff. We could tap into this talent if we do not undermine those venturing beyond the sound-proofed door.

Ultimately, it is about more than tackling the obvious aspects of sexism. For female talent to flourish, leave a greater mark on recording history and have the credit it deserves, we need more creative spaces where women, as well as men, are made to feel like they belong. Until its representation of women improves, the recording environment will nudge male creativity forwards while whispering in the ears of females that they are not good enough. And 'girl' will continue to be synonymous with 'fuck-up'.

The editors of this site were in agreement with the author of this piece that, for once, the comments sections should be left on and essentially unmediated to reveal - i)Why we often feel we have to turn them off and ii)To prove the necessity of this opinion piece in the first place

Dante
May 18, 2017 9:02am

I guess an article like this is a good way to raise money so that women can have their own studios, I mean be honest that's pretty much what you're asking for in the last couple of paragraphs..... No doubt a government grant awaits..... Seriously though is it prerequisite for artists to all be activists these days? I blame Morrisey.

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Jonny Chinchen
May 18, 2017 9:24am

Well, as the writer has noticed, the best musical artists tend to be men, as do the best engineers and sound recordings.
If I, as a man, walked into the teacher's room of a childcare institution and complained that the whole vibe was set up for women, and that i was being actively discriminated against because my maleness made the kids less comfortable with me, well, I wonder how much sympathy it would engender.
The music business is male dominated for a very good reason. Most of the stars are men, most of the people involved in recording are men, and men tend to listen to more music than women.
What were you expecting?
Instead of complaining about this, how about setting up your own studio and making it female friendly? If what you say is true, you will soon be inundated with grateful, happy female musicians, who will perform better due to the positive female environment you have created.

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Grace Banks
May 18, 2017 10:06am

In reply to Jonny Chinchen:

Actually, I had written a paragraph which the editor cut, which went like this...
Notably, for the first time last year, entries to the British Composer Awards were judged anonymously and the number of women making the shortlist more than doubled. Similarly, when the major US orchestras implemented blind auditions, female membership soared. It turns out that we do like music made by women; we just don’t know it.

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G.
May 18, 2017 10:54am

I had a personal anecdote about someone I'd worked with while in a college audio recording program, but I've been up all night and can't phrase it right. The gist was that female classmates of mine who were way better (and ultimately more devoted) than I was have been given their due and are working great jobs in the industry, so the times are certainly changing and doors are open, even if they have to be beaten down more forcefully at times.

"Make your own studio" is a big damn layout of money, Jonny, even home setups if you're going to do it right. Most of the reason I changed tacks is because I came to it late, had no equipment, and not enough (see: any) of a portfolio to stay competitive. Female-friendly studios will have to be part of the equation down the road, sure, but it's a colossal gap in infrastructure to close. Furthermore, why do you think all those other elements of the industry have been male-dominated for so long, and don't you think that people have already done so?

I think it's just another extension of generations-old stigmas and preconceptions about women in both STEM-intensive and media-adjacent fields; it'll be a slow and aggravating process, but at least it's good to see the self-selection biases melting away behind the boards after lagging behind the few positive turns on the artist end of the equation. As long as the demographic numbers are going up, I feel pretty positive that time will bear things out.

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Mate
May 18, 2017 10:56am

Less crying more working...Nobody is silencing you, there are plenty of women working in studios and music industry. Yes it's only 5% but thats not because sexism, it's because men tend to do that job often than women. FACT.

Stop talking about quotas as if they mean anything...In coal mines there is 0% of women working, did you made an article about that?

You can't take a simple banter and yet you are complaining how it isn't welcome to women. You think men don't have to fight for their work in music industry? You think I come in studio, pull my dick and balls out and record labels just throw their contracts at me?

The more you cry, less will people be welcoming to you, nobody wants to work with people moaning all the time. Nobody gives too shit if you are women or men, if you are a good person to work with people will work with you.
But if you whine about how everything is sexism because "there is not enough girls" then yeah, I would avoid working with you as well...

In studios we do music, not gender queer feminist ballet studies.

STOP.FUCKING.WHINING.AND.START.WORKING.

Peace.

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Harry
May 18, 2017 11:05am

In reply to Jonny Chinchen:

Many early years childcare settings are actively trying to recruit male staff and having worked in that world there is no evidence that 'maleness' would 'make the kids less comfortable with me'. I think you are missing the point.
Men presumably feel comfortable in these spaces without an assumed confirmation of blokey stereotypes, and if this inhibits female artists and engineers etc. from producing the best they can then that is a loss for all of us.
The music business is male dominated for many reasons, and this may be one of them.
Writing an article that says it may be a good thing to have different spaces for making/recording music doesn't preclude doing something about it. Do we have to have solved something to comment on it?

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Dan Cox
May 18, 2017 12:15pm

In reply to Mate:

Hi Mate,

What Grace is talking about is an institutional bias against women in the recording community, which is a perfectly valid criticism based on many many anecdotal reports from women AND men. Just because you are male (presumably seeing as you claim to have a dick and balls) and have never experienced it first hand does not mean it doesn't exist. If a given studio environment is heavily geared towards a particular group, it's by definition going to feel exclusive to others and therefore make it harder for that group to thrive there. It isn't the case that every studio is like this, but historically are lot of them are.

Grace is completely correct in citing the importance of 'creating a nurturing environment' in the studio. This is absolutely essential, and applies to everyone who's in the room regardless of whether they are on the production team or the artist. Everyone wins that way and the results are always better. This is my personal experience as somebody who always does they very best to create a supportive environment for all parties in the creative environment.

I won't make a personal comment about you (I mean I couldn't seeing as you weren't even brave enough to comment using your own name) but I don't see many successful producers/engineers in this game that go around accusing people they disagree with of 'whining' or 'crying'. But hypothetically if there was a record producer called Mate, I'd suggest they had a think about their attitude.

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Dante
May 18, 2017 12:21pm

In reply to Grace Banks:

No sorry Grace I like music. The gender, race, sexuality, political stances, or personal life even really doesn't have an impact on how I listen to their work. You say that the amount of female nominees doubled then that's great maybe they just made better music that year. Identity politics is ruining art and so reductive especially in regards music which should be free to exist outside the constraints of time, space and the latest cause celebre..... As an aside I know of a few women who have posters of barley clothed men pinned to their work wall. it doesn't make me feel uncomfortable just makes me smile. Joyful people are far more likely to make a joyful noise. Namaste.

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mrg
May 18, 2017 12:48pm

In reply to Jonny Chinchen:

'the best musical artists tend to be men'? Absolute fucking bullshit.

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mrg
May 18, 2017 12:51pm

In reply to Mate:

A sure sign of not being a good person to work with is passing off disrespectful, abusive and misogynistic behaviour as 'simple banter' and treating people's valid complaints about that as 'crying' and 'whining'.

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Henry
May 18, 2017 12:59pm

In reply to Mate:

Hey, I'm unemployed, live with my parents and get off trolling people with nonsensical bullshit over the internet!
getting my dick and balls out in (and outside) recording studios is what I do man, just fucking lay off me! I have feelings too.

peace.

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facepalm
May 18, 2017 1:16pm

Hi Grace,

Some honesty here, when I read your article my first response was that it couldn't be THAT bad out there, and unfortunately we all have to deal with idiots at work who don't appreciate your talents and enjoy patronising, rather than encouraging....

Then I saw the tone of some of the replies and now totally understand what you are up against.

Recently I have fallen in love with the work of Beatrice Dillon, Lena Willikens and Margaret Dyas, if the next wave of artists are put off putting out great records as a result of the behavior you describe we are all worse off as a result.

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Ed
May 18, 2017 1:43pm

This is a great and necessary article. Huge kudos to Grace for writing it, particularly given the potential risk to her own career of asking those around her to confront their own (possibly unconscious) shortcomings or biases.

Some of the comments here are an absolute fucking embarrassment, and prove exactly why these articles are needed in the first place. If you can't handle the idea of women making detailed, reasoned arguments about gender inequality, then perhaps you should piss off back to the 1950s.

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Wabzgazm
May 18, 2017 1:59pm

In reply to Mate:

NEVER going to work in your studio, wherever the fuck it is. Sounds shit.

Signed: a bloke.

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ABC
May 18, 2017 3:09pm

And all the misogynistic comments on here are just proving your point! Oh the fragile male ego.

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Len
May 18, 2017 3:32pm

Every man on here slagging on Grace's article are reinforcing and backing up everything she wrote. Just a bunch of sexist idiots on here...

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May 18, 2017 3:58pm

In reply to Mate:

Your comment is exactly why these articles need to he written. FACT.

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Dante
May 18, 2017 4:20pm

Ah the usual cavalry of white knights chastising some of us for having an opinion and actually interacting with the text, which I believe, given the comments section being made available at the bottom of this page, we are allowed to do. Stop making modern music into some kind of social studies debate and get on with making actual music. So bored of this nonsense.

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mrg
May 18, 2017 5:24pm

In reply to Dante :

You're perfectly entitled to offer your opinion. Similarly, 'white knights' (choice of terminology giving away your philosophy there somewhat) and, y'know, actual women are entitled to tell you that your lad-bantz comments are toxic waste and do nothing but prove Grace's point.

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Johnny Nothing
May 18, 2017 7:57pm

In reply to Mate:

Oh I think she's working plenty hard enough. Can you match this, sir?
http://www.gracebanks.com/

I suspect not.

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Dante
May 18, 2017 10:44pm

In reply to mrg:

1) Explain to me how my comments have proved Graces point? Please use evidence to support your claim. 2)"Lad Bantz" thanks for just assuming my gender.

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May 19, 2017 1:54am

In reply to Grace Banks:

Ok Grace, noone here is saying there aren't great female musicians and studio engineers, but the percentages are always going to favour men - we tend to be much better (as well as much worse) than women in most areas.
There being fewer outstanding women in areas such as music is not a sexism thing, it's a DNA thing. You can't walk into an area that is going to have more male DNA and complain that it is blokey. As others have said, if and when more women become involved, the atmosphere will change naturally.
Men are not standing in your way. You have everything going for you. The fact that people are calling opinions such as mine "sexist" or "misogynistic", "old-fashioned" etc. shows that the tide of fashion and social justice is with you, I am just pointing out some obvious facts that tend to get overlooked in today's toxic identity politics and gender discussions.
Also, while you say that "blind" tests showed more people were open to female musicians and artists, you didn't say exactly what the figures are - "doubling" doesn't mean much if the original numbers were small!
I suspect that more women will become involved in music and music making, but do you really think it will ever be a 50 / 50 thing?
I reckon that once the current fashion for quotas wears off and we go back to being comfortable with who we are and what we are good at, music will still be an area where men dominate the number, and I don't see that as a bad thing. There are plenty enough female artists around, it doesn't feel like the female voice is "being silenced" as the byline of this article so hystrionically claims.

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not a lad
May 19, 2017 10:06am

Good lord, this is exactly why the PC nation lost in the US and will continue to lose. So by this token if I were to walk into a straight establishment or get into a field dominated by straight men I could cry "this place is too testosterone-y" for me!!

Women right great music, Janis, Karen Carpenter, Joni, etc. Why is it that these women never complained about who was recording them and just put out a good fucking record? Because this is an absolute non issue. Nobody does this cave man shit anymore, and the bar must be pretty fucking low for anything that you've described to have actually really happened. Wait is that misogynistic? Am i just like all the other guys now because i don't fit your narrative? I'm sorry it's called the real world, where people work hard to get their dues and not blindly walk into a workforce job market and get things handed to them because of their sex, orientation etc.

Leave the field if it's that bad, make your "own" studio by all means and watch it sink. While people are busy putting out brilliant music and you are asking for handouts because of statistics that aren't real or can't be refuted.

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EGG
May 19, 2017 10:34am

In reply to not a lad:

NOPE

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May 19, 2017 10:40am

Good lord! Woman talks from personal experience about issues that affect her in her day to day work and a bunch of people shout her down and tell her she's wrong, too sensitive and shouldn't be doing the job if she can't hack it. Way to go! Hope you angry little people feel a lot better about yourselves now! That'll teach her, to have a personal opinion on her personal experiences and to dare to talk about them in public! Silly girl...

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Conservative White Male
May 19, 2017 10:45am

Where to begin on this idiotic feminism thing we have going on here. Do you Libtards ever wonder why leaders like Stalin were so great at keeping people in line? Yeah... he sent ridiculous ankle biting bleeding heart screwup Liberals to Siberia. Pretty cool eh?

This whole politically correct, "if you don't agree with every single thing I say - you're a bigot/racist/sexist, etc."... Let me call BS on the entire issue. You Liberals lost. Understand?! You LOST. People like you who just can't live and let live and just get the eff on with life make my skin crawl. Liberalism is a cancer. We Tories are the chemotherapy. This whole gender war, or whatever the hell you label it this week is nothing more than crap. Its old, its annoying, it makes Liberals look like bigger fools than they already are. Your made up fantasy world of "life isn't fair" is beyond pathetic. Grow the hell up and join mainstream society without feeling jaded, or the need for some sort of validation for possessing a vagina. Liberalism is a disease. A crippling, divisive and menacing disease that never has anything good to come from its ideology as a result. I'd love to see Trump put an end to affirmative action and all of these repressive, and unconstitutional laws that have done NOTHING to improve anything - your article is a bit of proof of that. A job, no matter what field should go to the most qualified candidate - regardless of colour/race/sex, etc. Enough of the BS sufferage/its not fair nonsense. You and other Liberals will continue to lose elections, lose more respect than you already have and you will get nowhere fast, and you'll have nobody to blame but yourselves! Christ almighty - ever hear of a word called "normalcy"... try applying it to your everyday life for a change and enough with the "I'm so disenfranchised" BS!

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Chris Thatcher
May 19, 2017 11:04am

In reply to :

'You can't walk into an area that is going to have more male DNA and complain that it is blokey.'

If you choose to read this as a massive, hideous euphemism (which I do) then all of a sudden it becomes gloriously appropriate as both a summary, and an indictment of a lot of the response to this article.

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HR
May 19, 2017 11:07am

In reply to Mate:

Says the man whining profusely about a woman talking about legitimate issues. Men can't even read one tiny, gently-worded well-informed article criticising them without throwing a strop. Typical.

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paperplate
May 19, 2017 11:21am

In reply to Conservative White Male:

Well, if there's one thing this article has reassured me of, it's that the national Bellend shortage is a myth.

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greg
May 19, 2017 11:22am

In reply to Conservative White Male:

Stopped reading at 'conservative'.

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Myles Cochran
May 19, 2017 11:27am

Keep working, Grace, and keep talking about this stuff. Good people of both/all genders notice this crap and work to banish it from their studios. And their lives.

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May 19, 2017 11:40am

In reply to :

"shouted her down"

You mean we stated some opinions that disagreed with hers.

Hysteria mate.

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Jonny C
May 19, 2017 11:47am

In reply to Chris Thatcher:

'You can't walk into an area that is going to have more male DNA and complain that it is blokey.'

If you choose to read this as a massive, hideous euphemism (which I do) then all of a sudden it becomes gloriously appropriate as both a summary, and an indictment of a lot of the response to this article.

You might as well have written:
"I choose to read a reasonable statement and rather than answer reasonably, I am gunna go mad hystrionic and spout a load of nonsensical non-sequiturs and assertions which I won't back up."

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EGG
May 19, 2017 11:52am

In reply to Jonny C:

WHAT REASONABLE STATEMENT? YOU ARE A PRIZE WINNING FILLED NAPPY

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May 19, 2017 11:56am

In reply to Dan Cox:

What you don't understand is that we don't live in a rainbow marshmallow flavoured theme park.
You can't make a space that will appeal to all comers and make absolutely everyone comfortable, without making it bland and sterile, removing all the character and fun.
These days, everybody is out to take offence at anything that doesn't smell like their baby blanket.
As a parent, you tell your kids that the world isn't made just for them, and that if they persevere in life, they will begin to shape the world around them more to their own liking - either that, or create your own space where your own likes / dislikes can be more prominent.
Expecting everyone else to fit in around your petty preferences is just childish.
Grace is so sensitive that she evens hears comments made by posters of nude women....maybe if she'd listened closer, she'd have heard the poster saying,
"Don't be so disgusted by men and their world, they are simple types who are so in love with the female form that they honour it on the same level as their greatest rock stars. Take heart, Grace, and if you can ignore the little foibles, you'll wind up having a lot more fun collaborating with them, than you will whingeing about them"

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May 19, 2017 11:58am

In reply to EGG:

#puts toys back in EGG'S pram#

There There....

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Jonny C
May 19, 2017 12:00pm

In reply to mrg:

"Absolute fucking bullshit"

Sorry, missed their work. All girl band, are they?

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Dante
May 19, 2017 1:35pm

!) Conservative White Male is a poor attempt at satirising the typical response from the Breitbart/Daily Mail community while also trying to undermine some of the more valid points made in the comment section. 2) Writing that these comments prove Graces point without explaining why is infantile and reductive. People are allowed to interact with the points made in the article. 3)Starting to get the vibe this article might be a marketing ploy to get Grace Banks some media attention and the comments are being made by the same persons......

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Chris Thatcher
May 19, 2017 1:37pm

In reply to Jonny C:

You are soooo right, in future when I read a reasonable statement, such as,

“Where to begin on this idiotic feminism thing we have going on here. Do you Libtards ever wonder why leaders like Stalin were so great at keeping people in line? Yeah... he sent ridiculous ankle biting bleeding heart screwup Liberals to Siberia. Pretty cool eh?”

...I'll try to keep the tone of my responses, muted and understated. I'd hate to have 'upsetting the delicate sensibilities of put-upon men who've somehow had words they don't like forced upon them by their internet browser' on my conscience.

You know, I've got enough on my plate trying to deal with this overwhelming liberal guilt day in day out… I wish I could just carry it around in a massive Tote bag made of hemp. The bag would have slogans about how cruel life is and for a moment I'd probably just be really smug and assume that I'd changed the world for the better by having a right-on opinion about stuff. But then I'd probably still get nagging headaches thinking about the fact that I don't know if the Tofu I buy is sustainable and I'd expect my employer to give me days off to cry into a bean bag filled with recycled Edame beans. I also live in constant fear that someone might find out I still use Amazon roughly once a month despite me knowing that they're like really just all about slave labour n that. It's really difficult.

I genuinely think that if I knew that me going mad hystrionic (sic) at someone saying something utterly non-hysterical like 'Liberalism is a cancer. We Tories are the chemotherapy', had upset anyone, I'd probably literally melt like a snowflake. And if I were to not back my response up or just spew out a load of nonsensical non-sequiturs (sic) and assertions (I don't know, just plucking something from the top of my head... maybe something along the lines of “the percentages are always going to favour men - we tend to be much better (as well as much worse) than women in most areas.”) then I don't know if I could, like, live with that crushing, like, self knowledge.

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TonyBadgers
May 19, 2017 2:21pm

Wow, what a disgusting sausagefest it is around here.

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Wabzgaam
May 19, 2017 2:33pm

Jesus Christ, these people actually walk among us. As a male musician, most of you absolutely do not speak for me. You're pathetic and deserve all the failure you get. If I clocked any of this tiny-penis bullshit from men in a studio I was working in, you would get called out on it instantly. Fuck you all, desperate pathetic whiny manbabies.

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malper
May 19, 2017 2:41pm

In reply to Mate:

good lord you're like a 4chan neckbeard angrily posting in the back of the stock room at guitar center.

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Malper666
May 19, 2017 3:00pm

In reply to Mate:

LOL @ every pissed off dude in this thread who DOES NOT work in the professional music industry.

"But if you whine about how everything is sexism because "there is not enough girls" then yeah, I would avoid working with you as well..."

BRUH no one works with you!

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Karl Jenkins
May 19, 2017 3:37pm

I'd put money on the worst offenders of male privilege in these comments have never even seen a music industry job never mind worked in one.
Being in a hard-rock covers band at the weekend doesn't count.
Being nicer to people, more welcoming, and able to change negative behaviour in yourself and the people around you not only makes life better for everyone, it's damn good business too.
If for no other reason than attracting 100% more clients should you perhaps change any stupid views you might have on non males in the industry. You might even become a better person as a result.

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Dan Cox
May 19, 2017 4:02pm

In reply to :

To anonymous who posted this:

"You can't make a space that will appeal to all comers and make absolutely everyone comfortable, without making it bland and sterile, removing all the character and fun."

Yes, you can. I did. And I'd be happy to show you around and time you want.

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LB
May 19, 2017 4:07pm

As a woman who has struggled in this industry, and have definitely done my share of quieting down and not pushing back, I am so sick of this shit. These comments are absolutely disgusting and reflects the attitudes af at least 30-40% of the men I encounter as full time touring FOH/MON engineer. Men, stop thinking this is the boys club like most of the sciences. Not just penises belong here. I fought long and hard to get to this position facing TONS of hurdles along the way specifically because of my sex.
Hey fellas, have any of the men you've worked with FOR YEARS gotten gigs to pass on to friends, looked at you and said "nah, I'm not going to hire you because you're a woman,"
No? Then shut the fuck up.
I'm so tired of your sensitive male ego.
Get. Over. It.
We are here. We're coming. Stop your misogynistic bullying and accept that the vaginas are going to invade and clean up your damn acts a little.
And by the way, watch out. We're gunna do it better ;)
Let be real for a second. If a woman has made it to a highly respected engineering position, in today's day industry, she worked her ASS off. Not because she didn't want to, but because she had to.
I have ALWAYS had to be 5 steps ahead of the boys, perfect in every step, with killer mixes otherwise it became "oh here WE GO. Another woman who THINKS she can do this shit." When I mess up.
And let's get real again. Everyone messes up. No one is perfect.
But men are not suddenly "incapable" to do their jobs if they mess up. Women are.
Stop discounting me because I have boobs. THEY DO NOT GET IN THE WAY OF MY IQ OR ABILITY.

And let's just take a second to reflect on the comments again.
'Nuff said.

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Dante
May 19, 2017 4:29pm

In reply to Wabzgaam:

You're 'ard ain't you...a musician how come I've never heard of you???....experimental right??

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Dante
May 19, 2017 4:30pm

In reply to LB:

Let's hear your killer mixes then if you're that good....

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Dave
May 19, 2017 4:43pm

I come from a country with a good traditions in equality (Poland) and it doesn't seem to be a problem here. Do you know why? Because we always took in the audio students based on their abilities, not their sex.

The Sound Engineering Faculty at Uniwersytet Muzyczny Fryderyka Chopina (The Fryderyk Chopin University of Music) in Warsaw was started in 1954. On the first year there were two students: a girl and a boy. Over the sixty years there were similar numbers of the women and men at the Faculty. I have heard that the current first year of master course in Sound Engineering for Film has a 100% (sic!) female rate. The current dean of the Faculty is also a woman (her second term).

Do you want more women in the studios? Then stop making a big deal about it. Just take them for granted, like in every other aspect of your life.

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Sandra
May 19, 2017 4:45pm

I hate these #HowCanIbeAVictimToday articles as it gives the impression that the world is hostile for women and their way is blocked at every turn. As a parent to daughters I despair at feminists telling them that they'll be 'paid less for the same work', that there are predators everywhere, college campuses are more rapey than a third world war zone, that a 'micro-aggression' (AKA nothing) should see you cowering. None of it is true.

Having been in music scenes for years, here's the thing: 90% of women that ZERO interest in the nerdy side of studio work. They want to sound good and will say when something sounds wrong but learning Logic or ProTools to an expert level, getting geeky with the science of sound, or grappling with nests of wires, etc., well, 90% just aren't interested.

But what about the 10% that are? Sure, no doubt they they may be mistaken for the other 90% at first. But as soon as a guy sees a woman that knows her way around a studio far from a threat it's seen as 'cool as fuck'.

So, girls, if you just want to be great musicians, great singers, great songwriters, that's fine. If you want to be a studio geek, that's fine too. No one is stopping you either way. Don't let the feminists turn you into a victim. You're better than that.

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Matey McBanter
May 19, 2017 4:53pm

In reply to Mate:

Can't tell if you're joking or just fucking awful

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Graeme
May 19, 2017 4:58pm

In reply to Mate:

Stop whining then write 'peace'? Your proving the point sadly. Most of my career as a bass player has been for female artists. There's a much nicer vibe in the bands and on the bus. Less fart jokes.. less pointless sexual posturing. In a choice between a session for a female songwriter or a lad band I'd take session with a female. From considerable experience it's a nicer gig, they work harder to be their because they have to. Egos are always something you have to work around regardless of sex or genre. I think your might need winding in s notch or two 'man'

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Conservative White Male
May 19, 2017 5:02pm

In reply to Chris Thatcher:

Thatch,

Here's a little bit of advice. Gently place that Merriam-Webster down on the desk, and take some deep breaths and relax... There ya go. Feel better?

There's nothing more beautiful in the world that watching Liberal "Regressives" implode on themselves. No, seriously... it's one of the most beautiful sights in the world - truly it is. How despised Liberals/Labour lowlife bastards are. A world run by Unicef, all colours holding hands in harmony... Christ, what Alt Universe are the idiots on the Left from?!

Liberals have made the world a disaster zone. They've decimated the EU, allowing these alien scum to enter unvetted, taking over, 'migrant' crime rates skyrocketing (rape/theft, etc), and the idiot Libtards STILL focus on 'Islamophobia'!? This has got to be some sort of joke eh? It's sickening. Liberal scum. Dirty, sad, pathetic Liberal scum.

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May 19, 2017 5:02pm

In reply to not a lad:

Perhaps you should read a little more about Janis Joplin's and Karen Carpenters life story, as for Joni Mitchell feminism is quit a strong theme in her writing. Your comment is a bit of a non comment...

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Graeme
May 19, 2017 5:07pm

In reply to Conservative White Male:

"Conservative hates Thatcher in gender bias shocker"

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a lad
May 19, 2017 5:15pm

In reply to :

Feminism may be strong with Joni, but I'm pretty sure she didn't sit in a room full of men mixing her albums and made a non issue out of nothing. As for Carpenter, that was probably a bit of a stretch, the industry and her own upbringing brought her fate on. Joplin? I don't know, I just know she wrote awesome songs and she didn't give a damn about women in the studio, or at least as far as I know.

See because here's the difference between me, and these "liberal" think pieces. I don't care. I don't find stupid little shit to be upset about, minuscule non problems that are literally unimportant to me as a human being.

I mean jesus, suppose we were hit with a 9/11 again what would we do? Side with ISIS? Applaud the effort and write long think pieces about how "We really deserved it, in this islamic filled hate world" while thousands of people died?

This idiotic way of thinking that everything, everything you say or do means an iota to anyone important at least, and you should be coddled is just that, stupid. Nobody gives a damn, if there's a woman producing my album, I'm going to be just as harsh, real, and honest as a man. That's the way it works, you want to be equals? I'll treat you as one, if that's too much go back to sewing! Oops! Did I say that? Dang I've really got to think about my "male privilege" here.

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Conservative White Male
May 19, 2017 5:40pm

In reply to :

His comment is a "Non-comment"? How exactly do you figure, whiz kid. THe three women you mention could care less about the things you THINK that they do... Especially Janis. Look, I know you Liberals are still seething and foaming at the mouth over Trump, Brexit, etc. I know the rejection you must certainly feel has got to be as empty as hell. Ths weirdo leftist crap is just that... crap.

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Wabzgazm
May 19, 2017 5:45pm

In reply to Dante :

Because you only listen to Butt-Rock

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May 19, 2017 5:47pm

In reply to Jonny Chinchen:

Some of these comments! I'm very glad there are some male (I'm guessing) voices countering the eye watering comments from the likes of'Dante', 'Jonny Chinchen' and 'Mate' . I'm sure I don't want to hear most peoples' personal record collection but PLEASE LORD let me never be stuck listening to Jonny Chinchens'hours of MAN

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Wabzgazm
May 19, 2017 5:50pm

In reply to Conservative White Male:

At what point in your life did everything start to go terribly wrong for you?

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Conservative White Male
May 19, 2017 6:07pm

In reply to Wabzgazm:

I love it when I decimate a Liberals nerve(s). It makes life that much more sweet. Thank God that individuals like yourself only make up .03% of the population. It's like you're invisible, but still we see these idiotic posts that are so - weird and - retarded. I mean, you honestly believe in what was written above is being fact. That's beyond pathetic. I have immense respect for most everybody... until I read garbage like this. What's even more sad is that you truly don't know the difference between what you think "is" and what actually "is" reality. It's actually disturbing. I mean, if the calendar was pre-1962, folk like you would be doing the Thorazine shuffle in State Hospital. Look. The rest of us who live in a world of normalacy look at this type of shit and wonder how this speck segment of the population find the brainpower to tie their shoes. Seriously. Consider therapy. There is hope to recover from Liberalism into the Centre-Right world of what is normal.

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tex
May 19, 2017 6:13pm

In reply to Dante :

all power to you. and you must doing something right to annoy the small-minded, terrified men below.

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tex
May 19, 2017 6:16pm

In reply to tex:

all power to grace banks - not to dante. quietus comments system not helping me give props.

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EGG
May 19, 2017 6:23pm

In reply to Conservative White Male:

HOWS YR HOLE?

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Conservative White Male
May 19, 2017 6:36pm

In reply to EGG:

Hey Scrambled, all's well with my hole - thanks for askin' ;)

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Anonymous
May 19, 2017 6:40pm

I think that unfortunately your privilege has blinded you. Pulling out unrelated stats from cherry-picked studies does not further your cause either.

First off you should be thankful that you are in work at least when there may be many more talented men who are not getting a look in and who would gladly put up with the daily trauma of having to look at a poster of Bob Dylan as opposed to one of Patti Smith. Studios have always been a male space primarily, and if you knew anything about the history of recording and engineering then this would be pretty obvious from the get go. Despite this women have been gradually welcomed into spaces created and pioneered by men such as the studio. Women now have nothing to stop them from succeeding in the field apart from a poor attitude and inflexibility. In fact, you are probably more like to stand out for being a woman now in order to fulfil a gender quota.

If you oppose 'masculine spaces' so much then why did you even enter the industry, knowing very well that it is male dominated? Studio culture has naturally developed over the decades, if a male client is surprised to see a female engineer and so reacts abnormally - then don't go home and cry about it - realise that you are something of an anomaly and always will be. The only thing stopping more women from becoming engineers or producers is their own will. Women's rights gave women a choice, we see women outnumber men in a vast array of well paid fields, are we going to start making it mandatory for women to study certain subjects just to get the numbers up?

Lastly I find your inconsideration of men typical of the ideology and solipsistic. All of the men who have ever worked in the business must have had it easy right? They never had difficult clients who made them feel uncomfortable, they never had to suffer adjacent to posters of artists or directors on the wall who they did not respect. Your anecdotal remark about the opinionated client proves this inconsideration as the client didn't 'have too many opinions' because of their gender, it was because they were opinionated and it was a warning to the player. Gender was not even mentioned or implied in anyway, if you can't overhear someone making a critical statement then please get out of the industry and allow another man or woman to take your place. Jumping from 'unquantifiable and subliminal' to men are physically being abusive in this space is also quite a leap and I believe that this tells the readers more about your own insecurities and fears then theirs.

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Conservative White Male
May 19, 2017 6:41pm

In reply to tex:

Haha, "terrified men"... Uhhh, no. You see, the world - the normal world - is run by women and men who work together toward a common goal in harmony. Guys like me do this for sport, you should know that lol. Pathetic little miserable Liberals. Why can't you people just join the normal world with the rest of us?? It's really not all that bad. You poor tortured souls.

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a lad
May 19, 2017 6:45pm

Nothing is more tasty than liberal tears, they should market it.

And my record collection? It's pretty diverse, because I have diverse tastes. It's sad really, when a bunch of whiny liberals complain about something that is really sad. This is the saddest article. It needs a blanket and some "me" time, maybe a "happy place" for it to go.

But seriously, why is it all the sudden people are up in arms about stupid shit like this? Why does this matter? Why is this a -thing-? Why can't we just let people be, or something about merit, and integrity and what not. Why do vagina's get a default go? Or gays? Or whatever? I didn't grow up poor, I'm not gonna lie, we were pretty poor, but that didn't make me think "gee i should be entitled to more things that other people have it's not fair!". If anything it taught me that I should work hard to avoid being in a slump, and that my parents actually taught me CORRECTLY even the ethos of hard work! I didn't get a participation trophy for being a special needs child either, nor do I get one for being queer.

The point being is, nobody deserves anything. You work for it. You pour all of you into the thing you are working on, that's literally how it works. You don't just get things by default because you feel things are unjust. That's NOT the way the world works. If you think writing a "strongly worded" think piece is going to effect in any way shape or form the way the industry works, you are a sad person who needs to rethink their line of work.

This has been fun but there's only so much more I can laugh at this stupidity.

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craigmont
May 19, 2017 6:50pm

But everything's fine for ME so I don't see what the problem is!

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Conservative White Male
May 19, 2017 6:54pm

In reply to Anonymous:

I applaud your last post, and agree with you 100%. At the end of the day, the sort of rant we're reading with these individuals is indeed more about personal insecurity and has nothing to do with gender. The job market has changed so dramatically since the collapse 10 years ago. Regardless of who a person is, finding stable employment that pays well is still fairy difficult. Employers evolved over the last 10 years, as has technology to a more "automated" workplace, and it's only going to continue becoming more and more complex as technology evolves in tandem with the market, and has nothing to do with gender equality.

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paperplate
May 19, 2017 6:55pm

In reply to Conservative White Male:

I think you mean "I couldn't care less".

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a lad
May 19, 2017 6:56pm

In reply to Wabzgaam:

I'm sure this will get you plenty of girls, who feel you are a strong ally for feminism! Keep up the good work you pathetic excuse for a man.

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May 19, 2017 7:00pm

In reply to ABC:

I don't see any frailty here, what I see is a bunch of people who are sick of this stupid PC culture that's turned into a disease where a bunch of people feel they are entitled to everything when they deserve nothing. If anything I think my ego is pretty in tact. I honestly could care less about who's producing the records I listen to, nor do I care how unfairly this woman says she was treated. I sincerely doubt that men are the cavemen women say they are. If anything men have been neutered to think that being "male" or "maleness" is bad. Or wrong.

Please try again though, maybe you'll hit the nail somewhere else.

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GREGG
May 19, 2017 7:05pm

In reply to a lad:

"I'm not gonna lie, we were pretty poor"

Yet I bet you voted for a New York billionaire who wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.

Good one Cletus.

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a lad
May 19, 2017 7:06pm

In reply to LB:

Hahahahhahahaha.

AHhahahahaha.
Ahhhhhh.

This is classic, this is so tasty. This is rich, this is like a cake.

Please continue to tell me how my ego is frail while you write a diatribe like this.

This is golden.

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GREGG
May 19, 2017 7:07pm

In reply to :

" I honestly could care less about who's producing the records I listen to, nor do I care how unfairly this woman says she was treated."

It's 'couldn't care less' you mundane clot, and if you don't care, why are you here.

Reply to this Admin

a lad
May 19, 2017 7:07pm

In reply to GREGG:

In fact I DID vote for him! You know why? Because 8 years of liberal policies and drawing lines in the sand has led us to the nation we are today. Because people feel validated patting each other on the back when they write "think pieces" like this that have absolutely no footing. Because we have someone in charge now, who wasn't a "community leader".

Listen, you can do better. Please come back with some real insults. I'll wait.

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Brian
May 19, 2017 7:09pm

In reply to Conservative White Male:

Liberalism and conservatism exist in equal measure, and are equally important. They both have roughly the same proportions of good, bad, smart, idiotic, sane, crazy, etc. That you specifically enjoy pissing off people because of such a small component of who they are does not speak well for what kind of person you are. That you are conservative doesn't mean you can't respect liberals. You disagree with them on a few things, but that's no reason to act like partisan rhetoric ("The person with whom I disagree is an idiot!") is fact.
This article is from a person who is every bit as competent as those around her, yet is consistently treated as inferior for no decent reason, even without people meeting or knowing anything about her, other than her gender. You may not have noticed this in your life experience, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen often.

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a lad
May 19, 2017 7:15pm

In reply to Brian:

Clap clap.

You are gonna get TONS of women with comments like this.

You are right, there are extremes on both sides, more so on the liberal side who feel that EVERYTHING IS SUPPOSED TO BE HANDED TO YOU. Conservatives have their faults, everyone does.

However this article is basically just a "dear diary that boy i like in school didn't look at me today" non piece about something that I'm sure doesn't happen nearly as often as this woman says. If it's that big of a fucking problem, go somewhere else! I would be happy to work with a woman, I know a lot of people who would, and would validate their responses and opinions on music. Whatever dregs of society this women works with that she's getting these comments is kind of hard to believe. Since ya know, men aren't allowed to be men anymore and we should be more sensitive and kind and what not.

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a lad's mum
May 19, 2017 7:18pm

In reply to a lad:

"In fact I DID vote for him! You know why?"

You started to suspect, as the rest of the world already knows that you are the bottom of the pile in every single way and you wanted to vote for a nice greasy slab of American daddeh who'll give diddums a baseball hat and tell you it isn't so?

You don't even disgust me. I feel nothing but pity, and a frisson of embarrassment.

Reply to this Admin

Conservative White Male
May 19, 2017 7:25pm

In reply to GREGG:

Gregg, your pathetic little attempt at wit is quite laughable. Hey, what I'm wondering (and others in the audience) is why your mother didn't swallow... Just sayin'. So friggin' sad.

Go scamper back into your closet, fuckstick.

Reply to this Admin

a lad
May 19, 2017 7:27pm

This is hilarious, what a hilarious hot take! Applying "my mom" to my name and then writing a comment about how I voted for someone who would just hand me money.

Wait a minute isn't that what Ob...ama did? He basically made it ok for people to live on Welfare, we should judge them no, they have 20 kids from various father's. No please, no judgment. Let's give them money so they can buy their weaves, and their expensive iPhones they don't HAVE to work for it!

Jesus dude, or whatever I'm assuming your gender now. By the way my mom did this thing, called work. In fact she was in the military for 20 years, see, she actually contributed. She actually defended this country. For you to take her name is actually kind of funny, but mostly sad. My mom is better than your mom.

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Conservative White Male
May 19, 2017 7:28pm

Mum, we Tories appreciate your carefully thought out response. Unfortunately for you, and those like you, le jeux sont fait. You Libs have been kicked to the ash heap of failure - where you shall remain.

Good day to you, thanks for the love ;)

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Lucy Cage
May 19, 2017 7:30pm

Well articulated, well-researched and very necessary article, Grace. Thank you.
I'm sorry that the comments are full of idiots who haven't managed to grasp what you're explaining to them. Keep on at it though; you're doing good work.

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A LADS MUM
May 19, 2017 7:35pm

In reply to a lad:

Hahah I'm enjoying this. Every single detached from reality viewpoint in one!

So if you're such a patriot, how do you feel about military veterans who have 'defended' your country over the years and have been left to rot on the streets? Should THEY receive social security? No of course not. Don't see any conflict there do you? It's because. you. don't. know. how. to. think. Brainwashed to fuck.

Pumpkin, you're going to die- you said you are poor. You're going to work your ass off all your life in shit jobs, get cancer in your fifties, then die because you think having national healthcare like every civilised country in the world is a commie plot.

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Terri
May 19, 2017 7:37pm

That less than 5% statistic comes from Women's Audio Mission (WAM), Sound Girls formed from a panel that Women's Audio Mission put together at AES in 2012. WAM operates the only professional recording studio in the world built/run by women and we train over 1,500 women and girls every year in audio production - have been doing this for 14 years here in San Francisco. We have placed over 400 women in careers at Dolby, Pixar, Electronic Arts, Pandora, and our studio has recorded/produced projects from Kronos Quartet, tUne-yArDs, Angelique Kidjo (2014 Grammy win), academy award nominated soundtrack to the film Dirty Wars, National Geographic, Mary J Blige/Hillary Clinton. A lot of progress happening here! www.womensaudiomission.org

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a lad
May 19, 2017 7:39pm

In reply to A LADS MUM:

Yawn.

Are you done?

I'm not brainwashed, should vets get SS? Yes, they defended our country, they fought for your right to insult my mother by using her name. It's a completely different situation than I am describing, because people like vets did this thing. Called work. It's called working. It's called contributing!

Also, I was poor yes, I am poor yes. No I don't foresee that happening in my future. I'm a bright male, while in the interim I might have to do some shit labor job, eventually I'll land. Because I have the opportunity as everyone does, to make something out of their lives and not lay on their backs asking for a free handout.

Again, nice try though.

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May 19, 2017 7:43pm

In reply to Lucy Cage:

Wait how was this "well researched"?

She basically just found more "think pieces by women" and cited them. With as far as I can see only one source that could possibly be claimed as "trustworthy".

She's basically just regurgitating what other women have said, or are saying because they feel so awful they aren't getting equal rights but literally no woman I've ever talked to in my life has felt unequal. If this stuff is happening it's happening in the dregs of society, because again males aren't allowed to be males anymore. We have to bow to the almighty vagina, and we should feel awful for being male, or white, or straight or whatever.

But I don't feel awful for being white, cis and gay. In fact, I think I'm pretty comfortable with myself. I like me, and not one person women, queer, whatever is going to tell me or make me feel ashamed for being who I am.

Get over this "women need more rights" BS because that's exactly what it is, BS.

Reply to this Admin

Conservative White Male
May 19, 2017 7:44pm

In reply to Brian:

Brian, I'd like to thank-you for your thought out, and professional reply.

I've been in HR/Employment Law for about 14 years now. Since 2008, employees in every sector, regardless of gender, have a distinct feeling of insecurity. The echoes of the global economy collapsing in 2008-9 are still felt as strongly today and will take a generation or two to move beyond this type of feeling. The workplace has changed so dramatically in the last 10 years. Job security is a thing of the past, with most companies having found ways to do without because of the collapse, why would they need what was once an essential employee, now is non-essential. Another element of gender bias is really something to be discussed. I can tell you that I have dealt with more cases of discrimination/hostile work environment issues from male AND female employees who have female supervisors. My sister is a good recent example. She had the boss from hell... and her boss was a woman. So from an HR standpoint, I've seen more than you can imagine. When I read articles like this, it kind of angers me because I know there is a lot more that goes on behind the scenes in any sector than you can imagine.

Related to Liberals... I despise them all, and I mean that with every fibre of my being. These people have destroyed society to the brink of so many horrific things that it makes my head spin.

Again, thank-you for your reply.

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Kali
May 19, 2017 7:54pm

As a woman with a bachelors in audio engineering from CCC, I just want to say that if I could literally drop a bomb and kill all the male commenters on this post I would. Without apology and gleefully laughing at the pieces of your bodies sprayed all over.
You are disgusting. I genuinely want you to die

Reply to this Admin

Conservative White Male
May 19, 2017 7:55pm

In reply to A LADS MUM:

Sweetie, I'm glad you're enjoying this. I have to admit, we Tories are, too. Makes me giddy, actually. :)

No, but seriously... I often wonder why people like you actualy leave the house. The millios of men and women who proudly served in countless wars to protect democracy - just to arrive at a conversation like this? It's a pathetic hot mess. Your grandparent are spinning in their graves listening to the garbage you Liberals are spouting off. Homeless Veterans? It's a fucking disgrace! What you don't understand is the Kenyan community leader of the last 8 years did NOTHING for the US Military! Not a fucking thing! He dismantled and disgraced the Military! At least we Tories do indeed take care of the Military and Veterans. You Liberals like to take care of a lunatic fringe before taking care of the people who protect us. Shame on you.

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a lad
May 19, 2017 8:18pm

In reply to Kali :

Honey, honey!

Who hurt you? Did daddy drink too much and treat you bad? Did mommy not give you enough love? Were you the girl in school who smelled funny, and kept butterflies pinned to a board as a hobby? Did not have many friends?

Trust me when I say, your brand of "feminism" is not the feminism that was intended, when the movement started. This is all out hate, and stupidity written by a scared little girl who is hiding behind a name online.

The fact that this upset you so much, makes me know and my pal Conservative know that we are doing a good job :D

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Conservative White Male
May 19, 2017 8:29pm

Mum, don't make me jealous... I'm a gay boy, too. Let that sink in a lil bit. I loves me the meatstick you refer to... Enjoy, and do have a gulp for me ;)

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Conservative White Male
May 19, 2017 8:32pm

In reply to Kali :

Where'd you scamper off to you cowardly little cunt? Did the heat in the kitchen get a bit too hot for your training bra? Come back and play with us... we were just getting ramped up ;)

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CONSERVATIVE WHITE MALE
May 19, 2017 8:33pm

Hi Everybody,

This is 'CONSERVATIVE WHITE MALE's mom.

I am so so so SO sorry he has been trolling your website. Please do not think this will go unpunished. I am going to make him go to theatre group, watercolour painting classes and donate all of his toys to the orphans.

TA RA! Got to go!

PS GRAMPAWS MEAT STICK TASTES LIKE DOG CHEWS! YUMMEH!

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Conservative White Male
May 19, 2017 8:34pm

What! Wait, that's not me! Libtards! I mean LEOTARDS! LEOTARDS!

I AM DANCING THE WATUSI IN MY LEOTARD TRA LA LA LA LA

GRAMPAWS MEATY TREATY

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Anonymous
May 19, 2017 8:48pm

In reply to Kali :

And that perfectly demonstrates why you shouldn't deserve such a privileged job.

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@TheRealConservativeWhiteMale
May 19, 2017 9:01pm

In reply to Anonymous:

Perfectly stated.

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@TheRealConservativeWhiteMale
May 19, 2017 9:13pm

In reply to CONSERVATIVE WHITE MALE:

Mumsy, did you forget to take your meds? Methinks you did. I still love you tho ;)

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Lesley
May 19, 2017 9:26pm

Important article. I’ve been through this nonsense for 20+ years. I noticed it rarely comes from respected engineers. It’s usually from guys that are not terribly secure and would probably eat their own sex as well. Most bullies and people who struggle with vulnerability will do what they can get by with to exert power over others and women can be an easier target. We are more estrogen than testosterone in general. Some of my favorite mixers are emotionally well-rounded sensitive types. That’s just me…many think if sound is not crushing/dominating then it sounds like a demo. So many styles out there. Thanks for the well-written article, Grace. It's important for young females to hear your voice.

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Joanne Phillips
May 19, 2017 9:36pm

I owned a recording studio - briefly. It's so much more than just being a good engineer. There must be complete trust from the musicians. Sometimes, as a female, with an all male band - it's just not going to happen.

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Julia
May 19, 2017 9:42pm

In reply to Jonny Chinchen:

Actually, the lack of men in education, especially early childhood and elemetaru, is actively discussed in achools, teacher training programs, and by teachers themselves. Unfortunately, its the same toxic masculinity that tells women they will fail at producing music that tells men they should not care for children. I am an elementary school teacher, and we are consistantly trying to bring more men into the fold. Anyone who has spent any amount of time with a devoted father of young children knows that men make excellent teachers and caregivers. Your argument is bullshit.

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JrF
May 19, 2017 10:44pm

the really either hysterical or sad thing is that none of the idiot men who have commented seem to have the slightest real interest in music or sound. If they did they'd know that the entire creative history of music, & specifically the areas covered by The Quietus, have been massively influenced by & created by female artists; electronic music for example (I never, ever, ever accept that any bloke is 'really into' electronic music if they don't know who Derbyshire, Oram, Pade etc are), jazz, experimental music etc. You cannot care about music or sound & not know about, respect & understand the role of female artists, simply because they are a massive part of every development, every movement, every continuum. The misogyny that exists is based on ignorance & almost always a distinct lack of creative talent.

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pete
May 19, 2017 10:50pm

In reply to Jonny Chinchen:

spot on. My kudos

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May 19, 2017 11:44pm

A.DICKHEAD

I’ve heard that tired statistic over and over again: Women only make 78 percent of what men earn. Yet somehow, these so-called “second-class citizens” still have the money to buy those soaps with the fruit in them. This is hard evidence that you can’t ignore, and it’s time we all recognized the wage gap for what it is: a myth.

Yes, women used to be compensated unfairly, but that was decades ago. Nowadays, every woman who buys one of those sparkly soap balls that look like candy is living evidence that females have not only reached the glass ceiling, but also smashed right through it.

Social justice warriors, I defy you to take a smell of any soap women are buying and then tell me you still think they’re an oppressed group.

This isn’t misogyny. These are facts. I’m simply noticing that whenever feminists cry wolf about the wage gap, they conveniently fail to mention any of the following soaps:

The oatmeal soaps that women buy that look like they’re filled with bugs
The soaps I’ve seen that come from maybe Jamaica that are shaped like starfish
The soaps that look like but probably aren’t actually peanut butter
Soaps like these should be undeniable proof that in 2016, women are getting more than their fair shake in America.

Social justice warriors, I defy you to take a smell of any soap women are buying and then tell me you still think they’re an oppressed group.
If your progressive agenda is still blinding you to the truth, I urge you to take a step back and see just how illogical your argument is. Have you even considered those bowls women put on the toilet tank filled with soaps that are shaped like seashells? Have you ever thought about the woman who owns one of those bowls? Say what you want about how society treats her, but I guarantee you that woman is making at least as much as her male counterparts.

We need to stop perpetuating this idea of a wage gap and start acknowledging that for years, women have been splurging on opulent soaps only an emperor should buy. Until the day we admit that, we’re not going to get anywhere on this issue. I only hope that day isn’t too far off.

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Julie Campbell
May 20, 2017 3:51pm

Essential read. Undoubtedly one of the reasons I set up my own studio.

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Steve c
May 20, 2017 3:53pm

Only read this article because I wanted to see how many gibbering morons came crawling out from under their rock to shoot a woman down for airing her opinion publicly and fuck me there are plenty of you. Seeing DNA cited as a reason for musical superiority is a new one to be honest: is this the core of your PhD thesis? Have any of you worked in a place where there is open and implicit hostility directed at you simply because you are a different gender/colour/faith etc? Doubt it. It's only 'harmless banter' when it's dished out on a level playing field but some of you will never get this wiill you. The nursery school as a ' female environment' is a good one too. Have you ever been to one: as an adult I mean? Doubt that too.
One minor niggle about an otherwise illuminating article: haven't many feminists ditched 'mansplaining' because it's a bit sexist?

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Wabzgazm
May 20, 2017 4:00pm

In reply to a lad:

How old are you? You sound like an angry child.

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chris
May 20, 2017 8:42pm

I can't believe how many of the comments on here reveal the fear of mediocre f-ing boring blokey techs who are super frightened their warm little bo stained booths and carriers might eclipsed by a more balanced interesting group of grownup humans recording music without the same baggage. I mean recording studios are kind of obsolete anyway but these socially stunted twerps are just so boring.

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May 20, 2017 8:51pm

In reply to :

Why the hell are you so worked up about soap? It makes you sound like a gibberingw loon. Jeez, I don't like golf but I don't rant about the varieties of golf clubs and their cost online. Get a grip!

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Lara Brian
May 20, 2017 8:51pm

"The editors of this site were in agreement with the author of this piece that, for once, the comments sections should be left on and essentially unmediated to reveal - i)Why we often feel we have to turn them off and ii)To prove the necessity of this opinion piece in the first place"

Yeah, no-one's falling for your infantile Kafta-trap framing to silence and pre-empt criticism.

Take a long hard look at yourselves and how weak an argument you must have to play this card.

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Alyson
May 20, 2017 9:30pm

In reply to Jonny Chinchen:

Separate is not equal.

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May 20, 2017 10:45pm

In reply to Jonny Chinchen:

Art is subjective, but in response to your 'baiting' re: male 'artistes' I just couldn't resist! So, here goes: Joni Mitchell, Aretha, Kate Bush, Dusty Springfield, Roisin Murphy, Alison Goldfrapp, Bjork, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Siouxsie, Liz Fraser, Big Mama Thornton, Lisa Gerrard, Chaka Khan, Billie Ray Martin, Missy Elliott, Peggy Lee, Carol King. Thats just for starters. WAKE UP!

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Mark
May 20, 2017 10:59pm

In reply to Steve c:

Oh Mary! You got that one right! For some reason I expected higher thinking from The Quietus readership, wrong! THE TWATS HAVE REALLY COME OUTTA THE WOODWORK. Their sensitive male egos betray their tiny cock sizes yet again. I guess, being a man who completely backs Graces comments - I too must be 'weak'/'liberal'/ overly sensitive' etc,etc..... Interesting how a female perspective is immediatly bashed to pieces! Sorry Grace - you just can't win! You highlight something in an articulate, patient manner & all the SENSITIVE MEN come out... ALL THE MORE REASON FOR GRACE TO PUT THIS ARTICLE OUT THERE! S'alright guys, Grace has gone now, you can all come out and start mutually wanking each other off in a 'bonding' sesh! Just make sure you all 'mop up' with yer socks afterwards....

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May 20, 2017 11:55pm

In reply to Jonny Chinchen:

Do men really 'listen to more music than women'? What an absurd statement.

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LianL
May 21, 2017 12:34am

I'm a 37 year old woman who has been working in audio since I was 19. I started at a legendary recording studio in Hollywood where I was an intern, for a very short time an assistant and then eventually built Neve clones for the studio. I was around all kinds of people, some very macho douche dudes who loved to have porn everywhere in the studio and then women artists who jerked themselves off during vocal takes. All through it though, one thing remained, everyone was a professional, no one cares about your feelings, all people cared about was if you can do your job well and maybe we'll have some laughs along the way. My career has shifted from being in studios do designing and building them, I gained the trust of many reputable facilities. When I look back I think of all the men that championed me, I feel like I got preferential BECAUSE I was female and that they were desperate to have some diversity. Another point I'd like to make is that your mind is very powerful. Once you decide that a reality exists confirmation bias will always be there to prove your theory to be correct. When you walk into a room and start analyzing every photograph, you've already lost your way, just do your job. If your client is happy and the facility is still creating issues for you, then go to another facility.

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May 21, 2017 6:21am

Got to the second comment. Had to stop reading as I felt the fury rise. Great article and an interesting read. I get it with performing; most frequently asked question, "are you the groupie?" fnar fnar fnar so hilarious. My husband, who isn't in the band and doesn't play, gets asked about tonight's set list.

Standard.

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Mr Bongo
May 21, 2017 9:12am

In reply to LB:

Discounting you because you have boobs? Boobs are all that get you in the door darling!

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Tommy Mack
May 21, 2017 11:24am

Wow, there are a lot of dickless men really scared by this reasoned and restrained article. No wonder women are put off working in studios if there are this many pissy-pants mummy's boys whining the second someone suggests male dominance may stem from something other than men just being naturally better.

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Jonny C
May 21, 2017 2:09pm

In reply to Wabzgaam:

#clarion calls#

It's the entrance of the grand white knight. Have no fear everyone, what he perceives as right is gunna be backed up by angry hostile manliness. Only this type of "manliness" is ok and good, because he's pointed his little penis towards cuckland...

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Jonny C
May 21, 2017 2:12pm

In reply to TonyBadgers:

Ironically, your name would imply you're a man too, but calling this a "sausage fest" is your way of letting us know you won't be adding any testerone to the party, TonyWidger?

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May 21, 2017 2:17pm

In reply to Jonny Chinchen:

you're an absolute cunt

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Jonny C
May 21, 2017 2:19pm

In reply to Chris Thatcher:

Ok Chris, I'm assuming probably rashly from the large incoherent reply that you are at least a person of analytic capability.
Have a look online at psychological research into the relative intellectual performance of men and women across various fields and disciplines.
Men score higher and lower than women, right at the top and bottom of the measurements, whereas women stay close to an average measurement.
Men are thus more likely to be at the pinnacle of performance right across the board, as well as being the barrel scrapings, whereas fewer women reach the same highs or lows.
This is very common knowledge, but obviously is not at all popular with the gender is a construct people, feminists and white knights. Somewhat undermines their 6th form social studies perspective.

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Jonny C
May 21, 2017 2:27pm

In reply to LB:

LB,
Though I disagreed with the content and tone of your rant, it at least displays some balls, more in fact than most of the white knights prancing around in exaggeratedly effeminate outrage. But the point remains, hating guys because they act like guys is actually misandric, and not going to get you anywhere in the near future. These are first world problems, we all have to deal with shit at work, don't privilege your troubles by making them 100% because of the men around you. From the tone of your screed, you might be a somewhat confrontational and ornery person to work with?

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May 21, 2017 2:29pm

In reply to Graeme:

Choice piece of virtue signalling there, Graeme.

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j_royale@hotmail.com
May 21, 2017 2:33pm

In reply to :

Last 3 records purchased:

Slowdive 2017
Wrong Cops OST
Kohl Keith Black Elvis / Lost in Space

What's playing on the cuck bus?

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C.
May 21, 2017 2:34pm

I find it both amazing and hilarious whenever a man thinks his opinion of a woman's experience is more valid than hers.

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Jonny C
May 21, 2017 2:43pm

In reply to Kali :

Well, here we have the sort of bloodthirsty bitch that all these white knights and cucks are falling over each other to protect and promote.
Sorry luv, there are still a few blokes around who arent ashamed of their testosterone, not going away, reading your post shows me there is too much female privilege these days in the media, must be combatted to ensure a level playing field.

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Jonny C
May 21, 2017 2:50pm

In reply to Julia:

Hi Julia,
You wanted to write a considered response and I can respect that.
However "toxic masculinity"
Erm...oh dear...
How do you feel upon seeing the phrase "toxic femininity", does it endear arguments to you?
If you start from a position of considering masculinity "toxic", you are too prejudiced to be taken seriously - if you didn't notice the prejudice implicit in that easy phrase, then time to wake up.

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May 21, 2017 2:55pm

In reply to :

And you are an anonymous cunt

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Jonny c
May 21, 2017 4:09pm

Can someone call the fire brigade?

I got the mouse stuck up my pott again and mom can't hear me she's upstairs with Uncles Cletus, Meatus and Pe-anus. I think they are watching a nature documentary about bonobomonkeys. :(

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Jonny C
May 21, 2017 4:10pm

HAHA Go0d joke CUCKs LIBTA~RDS, THATS NOT ME

WAAH WAAAH WAAH TRUMPY WILL SAEV MEH

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brahbrah
May 21, 2017 5:30pm

OP no one gives a fuck about your situation. You are a youngish prettyish white woman who gets to make music all day because a bunch of men died miserably in wars to give you a safe country and enduring culture. Damn right men will control most things we've earned that right 1000x over.

A culture that churns out weak male cucks will also churn out shit-talking overconfident masculinized women to maintain the balance. Exactly what is happening in the west. Read what some of these disgusting chicks are saying in the comments. Those are the mothers of our future generations and it's the fault of weak men for allowing it to happen. Find your balls ffs.

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brahbrah
May 21, 2017 8:01pm

Please ignore my last comment, I am so ashamed.

I've been going through some tough times recently, got dumped, lost my job at the garbage licking factory, and mommy told me grampaw is actually my daddeh.

Shouldn't have taken this stuff out on you x

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normie
May 21, 2017 8:36pm

Conservatives are pussy snowflakes. Any1 who thinks men are better at any job than women deserve to have their families tortured and killed in front of them, and then to have their genitalia sliced up, to ensure removal of their faulty dna from the gene pool.

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Jonny C
May 21, 2017 9:14pm

In reply to normie:

CUCKS DUCKS EUCKS FUCK* GUCK HUCK IUCK ...ZZZ...BZZZTTTT

*BURSTS INTO FLAMES, NEVER POSTS ON THE INTERNET EVER AGAIN*

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Dave Chan
May 21, 2017 10:17pm

Wow, a lot of the comments here just prove her point. Way to make our industry unwelcoming folks.

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AL Tru
May 21, 2017 11:15pm

Social Conditioning. since the 1950s the Republican mantra wants women chained to the kitchen stove. When Hillary ran for President the 1st time, two elderly women were asked their thoughts about her running, and one woman said " She should stay in the kitchen where she belongs". what you allow is what will continue. When a predator comes near a herd of animals, the Alpha male will chase it away; when the Alpha female chases the predator, she hunts it down and kills it. Men should have a mixture of fear and respect towards women. Now, men are being emasculated and they don't even realize it. Governments do this for a reason; more control. I loathe the business side of music.

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meh as folk
May 22, 2017 3:38am

In reply to Dante :

Look up unconscious bias sometime

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attrition
May 22, 2017 6:37am

Most of the sites in my bookmarks have been stained by articles such as this. Every week, I see the, "Women are not represented in ___________" fill in the blank profession. Women can proclaim they are better at something than a man, but dare a man say the same, and it's blasphemy! You can't have it both ways. Tech, economy, financial, biking, STEM, programming, wage gap, clothing, etc. Meanwhile boys are being held back in school and diagnosed with ADD for being male. These fifth wave feminists won't stop until they actually become men.

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Privileged white male
May 22, 2017 7:55am

Ignorance knows no gender I have had an untrained individual do the same thing with a PC repair job.

This stereo typing works regardless of what it is with.
At the moment I am effected more often than not with the overly representation of the "privileged white male" as the perpetrator of all ills. This subliminally gives a message of shame and creates the need help the unmerited women rather then just those who have merit.

I am glad she is standing up for herself as she should, but this article is just reinforcing the message that as a women you are discriminated against and deserve a leg up to balance the books against all those men!

The real women are already blazing their own trails, while the rest are attending lib meetings on FB to reinforce the above to each other.

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Wabzgazm
May 22, 2017 9:37am

At least three of the most offensive posters here are clearly the same guy under different names. Obvious troll is obvious.

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Jonny Wills
May 22, 2017 10:47am

Coming from bands with a female drummer, I noted the first reaction from the male-orientated arena of the music entertainment sector was surprise: then when she played brilliantly the second reaction was of wonder and awe. I'm surprised the gender thing matters, what I'm sure you will prove is what really matters, and that is competency. But I bet you've discovered how bitchy some men are in this realm; and every time I've come across this poison of feeling and vibe by agenda or prejudice the infrastructure has seldom survived.

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Sammy
May 22, 2017 12:53pm

Thanks for writing this article!
I've always wondered what it's like to be a female sound engineer. I don't meet many so haven't had the chance to have a conversation about it.
As a male in the industry I am aware that women in music have a hard time. I've seen it all my life. Any guy that denies it on this thread hasn't opened there eyes to the behaviour set out around them.
I mean most of the horrendous comments on this thread prove exactly what you said.
Always gonna be problems on comments sections regarding sexual politics so I hope you don't take any of this to heart. I was vehemently attacked on the internet recently and realised that most people get a sick pleasure out of anonymously being assholes.
Hope it just strengthens your resolve to be a badass sound engineer.

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Lloyd
May 22, 2017 2:20pm

Didn't realise so many cunts read the quietus, holy shit these comments.

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Elise
May 22, 2017 4:25pm

Big surprise, this comment section is full of whiny men. Grow a pair.

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kokeshiAC
May 22, 2017 4:33pm

In reply to LB:

THANK YOU! Nailed it !

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June Millington
May 22, 2017 6:27pm

I'm one of the founders of a non-profit institute for women and girls in music - the Institute for the Musical Arts, www.imw.org - that was put into motion in 1986. We now own a property in Massachussetts that has 2 recording studios and a Recording Camp each summer, in August, for the older girls who've already attended our ongoing programs each summer, and young women (for Recording Camp, many are 18-24). Check it out. No comments from me at the moment regarding this important, ongoing issue. I mean, to me it's self-evident. (I'll mention that I - we, our band Fanny - started recording in 1968, and I've never stopped recording or performing since). This is part of the solution: build our own studios, institutes, infrastructure from the ground up; give 'em gear, info, and hands-on experience; start educating them early, in this case beginning at age 9 at our Rock 'n Roll Girl's Camps. Since I've been boots on the ground for over 50 years in performing/recording, I can tell you I've pretty much seen it all, and the work continues. We are seeing the beginning of a new world, one in which women and girls have potentially louder voices, a bigger role, and much hope and excitement. We are seeing it right now - our girls are now in, and many cases have graduated from, college. Thanks for this article.

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Dom
May 22, 2017 7:24pm

In reply to Dante :

To be fair to Morrisey, who's more subjugated, domesticated animals or women?

And don't blame these people, they're indoctrinated into this "Please government, save me from the bad citizens" shit. Classic divide and conquer.

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Dom
May 22, 2017 7:29pm

Some people were mean to you at work? That's sad. Clearly we should enforce gender quotas and police our thoughts and language to stop this ever happening again. Perhaps we should vote in some kind of world government that would have the authority and the mandate to enforce these rules for the good of all.

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Pete Sandbach
May 22, 2017 9:08pm

In reply to Wabzgaam:

Brilliant. I couldn't have said it better!

Some of these views are shockingly retrograde and I hope and would imagine don't represent the intentional views of many blokes in the industry.

However it can be difficult to shake the sort of cultural undercurrent that may determine our phrasing and attitudes so an article like this is really important for us all to take note of and reflect.

Thank you Grace.

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Ann Hackler
May 22, 2017 9:18pm

I'm the Executive Director of the Institute for the Musical Arts, founded 30 years ago to build a place for women to create music. The institute was co-founded by guitarist June Millington who has torn down "boys only" signs in the music world since she was 15. Every summer we offer a Studio Recording, Producing and Engineering program as part of our "Rock the Summer" residential music program for girls and young women. The studio recording faculty is composed of pioneers for women in the studio: Leslie Ann Jones, Leann Ungar, and Roma Baran. We are just putting up a new and much improved website next Wednesday, but here is the link to the information page now: http://www.ima.org/summer_rock_programs.html

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Samwell
May 22, 2017 10:21pm

Hey I'm a man and I don't notice any sexism, which obviously means it doesn't exist so you're a whiny bitch! (just summarising the impenetrable logic of many commenters here)

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Mortified
May 22, 2017 11:02pm

I just want to reiterate this...

"The editors of this site were in agreement with the author of this piece that, for once, the comments sections should be left on and essentially unmediated to reveal - i)Why we often feel we have to turn them off and ii)To prove the necessity of this opinion piece in the first place"

...because in reading through the comments the editors and author absolutely have proven their points. An unfortunate phenomenon. There is a distinct lack of insight. And I'm male.

Thank you Grace, and editors, for drawing attention to this issue again.

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kellyann
May 23, 2017 12:16am

In reply to mrg:

"...the best musical artists tend to be men'..." ? What a steaming pantload of patriarchal dumbfuckery. I find so many male artists pathetic, boring and mediocre, but that doesn't stop them for feeling entitled to mansplain music to women who can play rings around them. Why are men so afraid of women? It's sad, really.

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kellyann
May 23, 2017 12:19am

Speaking of "whining..." Is there anything more fragile than masculinity? I think not. So frail fee-fees of the great white male, they fall apart when women dare to speak of our own reality. pathetic.

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hamoverfist
May 23, 2017 12:36am

In reply to Conservative White Male:

And yet regardless of all of your hullaballoo about libtards and Stalin and a whole host of nonsense that doesn't address anything other than your prejudices the fact remains when we make the music and the performer anonymous in gender suddenly women start getting in the door in far greater numbers. No political opinion can get around that fact.

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Jas Gra
May 23, 2017 3:25am

Let me summarize many of the awful comments written so far: "I'm fragile and STOP THE WAR ON MEN!"

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Hannah
May 23, 2017 4:10am

In reply to Jonny Chinchen:

Jonny Chinchen - You are a fucking idiot

these comments are so fucked and exactly why the article is needed.

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Kris Keogh
May 23, 2017 12:51pm

As a male engineer I want to appologise for the shit you have to put up with. I know I wouldn't have had the strength and patience to tough it out under the circumstances you describe. Thanks so much for writing this, this stuff needs to be talked about. Much respect, Kris, Australia.

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AnonymousBrunette
May 23, 2017 2:23pm

In reply to Jonny Chinchen:

"The best musical artists tend to be men, as do the best engineers and sound recordings." You don't know this. No one knows this because subconscious bias is too powerful. If you don't see the point of this article - if it prompts you to defensively mansplain what you've been told to believe instead of asking why such a large group of musicians might feel this way - then you epitomize the problem.

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AnonymousBrunette
May 23, 2017 2:24pm

In reply to Dante :

Spoken like someone for whom the current system works.

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Svet
May 23, 2017 3:53pm

Dante, what you just wrote is moronic chauvinism. The whole world knows that pretty much every industry in the world is run my men except for you ;-) Good luck!

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Elise
May 23, 2017 4:00pm

I feel really sad for these men. Obviously sexually deprived, lacking confidence, terrible maternal relationships. Must be so difficult to hate women so much while simultaneously knowing you're entire existence is possible because of a woman, you know that whole birth ordeal. How terrible it must be. Issues like this have obviously caused the lot of you to be completely dillusional and egomaniacal. One thing I'll definitely do to remedy this is KEEP MAKING MUSIC AND RUB IT IN YOUR FACE TO PROVE YOU WRONG.

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dmitri sfc
May 23, 2017 4:24pm

those commentors are not real working engineers. Real working engineers have to work with women, & if they were seen commenting like that would no longer be allowed to use the studio. Those commentors are basement dweller , gear collector wanabees who dont know how to act and are deeply insecure about women because they dont know how to be social. we have met these types before LMAO.

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May 23, 2017 4:48pm

In reply to Mate:

Yes. I hate whining so much. If only men would stop being so hysterical when women provide evidence that gender bias exists.

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Genuinely stupefied
May 23, 2017 5:43pm

In reply to Mate:

Misogynistic AND homophobe... but peaces out at the end. A true champion.

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Genuinely stupefied
May 23, 2017 5:50pm

In reply to :

Sweet dear jesus lord you're a real pearl!!
And you seem to know so very much about DNA!!
You must be à real scientist dudebro or a smart person or some thing

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Genuinely stupefied
May 23, 2017 5:59pm

In reply to Sandra:

Ouh I love when women bash femninists, then make a feminist statement, then conclude bashing feminists. Stupid and quite funny.

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WhiteCanadianGuy
May 23, 2017 6:40pm

Small point of order, the top 5 selling albums in Canadian history are by women. I'm not sure where this boys club exisits other then in peoples heads. Tho ONLY people who think women are by some measure 'less than' men are women like Grace. They seem to internalize this feeling and project it onto the world. Home many male musicians need to hang themselves in thier hotels before we can agree, this shit is hard for eveyone.

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CanadianDude
May 23, 2017 6:47pm

In reply to LianL:

This comment! 100% on point. All this so far and you're only 37. HEad down work hard accomplish goals. Dumb people say and do dumb stuff, move passed it.

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Trey
May 23, 2017 7:14pm

Having cultivated friendships with many frustrated female sound engineers over the years, I enjoyed and learned from this article. Thank you for publishing. Also thank you for leaving the comment section open, it is revealing to say the least.

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Eugene
May 23, 2017 9:40pm

In reply to Dante :

Yes, Dante, all artists, especially now, should be activists, calling out misogyny, patriarchy, sexism. Mind you, I'm kind of curious why this article doesn't address the patriarchal and hierarchical paradigm that the "music industry" developed in. I mean everything from dictatorial executives, to control freak musicians and producers, not exactly an environment wherein mucial communalism can flourish.

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JH
May 23, 2017 10:42pm

Didn't really want to comment until I read some of the soul-crushingly depressing views on offer from readers: misogyny seems alive and well unforunately.
Thanks for the super article - I hope it serves as a wake up call to many in the industry, and will improve the thoroughly unwelcoming culture in the music industry for women.

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CuriousGeorge
May 23, 2017 11:47pm

Is sexism the reason why there are no women playing in the NBA, NFL, NHL?

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Kat C
May 24, 2017 12:03am

In reply to Mate:

You are truly garbage but i'm sure your music is great because you are a man, just like your ability to form a sentence.
Johnny Chinchen, Dante and all the other dudes quivering in their pants about making room for even ONE female engineer: you also suck. Dan Cox- you're a standup dude.
And Grace, Thank god for you.
I'll be reading!

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May 24, 2017 1:01am

Best quote of this article "it was often unnoticeable"

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evan
May 24, 2017 2:44am

thank you for this article. good idea to leave the comments on lmao

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Ruth
May 24, 2017 3:43am

Thanks so much for writing this Grace, you brave and brilliant human. When I read why you decided to leave comments on this article I thought 'surely nobody will be stupid enough to leave ignorant misogynist comments when they know it will just totally confirm Grace's point'... ha. Anyway thanks again. Also, your music is amazing, you're a genius.

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SomeGuy
May 24, 2017 6:05am

In reply to Ruth:

So you make a claim that 80% (roughly) of the people in the music industry are sexist and anyone who disagrees with the arguments Grace made is sexist. That kind of logic is bulletproof. You don't like the words people say, sexism. You don't like the decor of a studio, sexism. People disagree with your conclusions, sexism. It's a laughable set of conclusions from the start. Grace makes it clear she doesn't feel comfortable in enviroments that she defines as 'male' whatever that means subjectivly. Her feelings are not representitive of the women in this comment section much less all women. She doesn't question her perception or conclusions even once. This event made me feel uncomfortable, I'm a woman, therefore I'm uncomfortable because sexism. There's not 1 ounce of interspection made about why she might feel that way, it's just, men are sexist, period. The world must change to suit Graces feelings and Grace has no responcibility for how or why she feels the way she does, it's mens fault.

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Simba Bhebhe
May 24, 2017 9:58am

Aaaaaand the number of people that can't even see there is a problem because it's gone RIGHT over their heads, is exactly why this article is 100% correct.

Doods, you're a bag a dicks. Get a life.

Grace, brilliant article, nail on the head.

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Neil
May 24, 2017 10:23am

Phew. Still, all the ad impressions these Reddit twats have given you. must add up to something.

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person
May 24, 2017 10:48am

In reply to Neil:

Reflect momentarily on why the editors have given free reign to rant your insecure nonsense - a good idea but oh so desperately, desperately sad....

i)Why we often feel we have to turn them off and ii)To prove the necessity of this opinion piece in the first place

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Neil
May 24, 2017 11:14am

In reply to person:

Please point out where I "rant [...] insecure nonsense".

I've made precisely two comments here (this is the second). The first pointing out that the one upside of this whole sorry comment thread is a few extra ad impressions for TQ.

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Robert Davidson
May 24, 2017 11:35am

In reply to Dante :

A particularly dumb thing to say, and nicely demonstrating the important point of the article. Poor dear.

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Nova
May 24, 2017 1:24pm

Thank you for a great article with balanced and still critical tone. I think you described very acurately and without much anger the subtleity with which invisble sexism accumulatevly creeps into womens minds and behaviours. As I man/male I fully support fight and struggle towards more just and eqitable society. I couldn't read all of the comments, they are just too painful to digest, there are some pearls there though, but it sadens me how much ignorance and fear is out there. I also must commend your last paragraph and decision to leave comments open to prove your point.

There are men out there who want the inequality and sexism to disapear from our daily lives. We are all at loss because of it.

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Person
May 24, 2017 2:40pm

In reply to Nova:

Seconded.

Much better put than my earlier comment - which wasn't directed at you Neil, it was the collective 'you' just my bad posting skills in inadvertently replying to you, apologies.

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Audio Guru
May 24, 2017 2:44pm

In reply to Nova:

The ratio of critical comments to supportive comments (1/3) is roughly equivalent to Trump's remaining support base. Correlation? Of course. You'll find this same 1/3 of the adult population consuming Breitbart, Fox News, and [their favorite alt-right pundits]. Most of this demographic will also call climate change "a hoax," think lower taxes on high-wealth will help their middle-lower class standing, and that universal health care is immoral. Most of them will also call Obama a "terrible president" when in reality he is in the top 1/5th of historically objective presidential performance.

The only surprising thing here is that the 1/3 negative demographic comments actually bothered to READ this well-written essay. And if anyone is still wondering how this 1/3 demographic can even exist today, the truth is that an ingrown, xenophobic minority will ALWAYS exist, regardless of the "greater realities" that most of us take for granted. Thanks for the good writing, Grace.

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Thomas McKay
May 24, 2017 3:03pm

I'm a producer. The majority of my clients are women and I have shared the stage in every band I've been in with amazing women in so I've witnessed the bad behaviour first hand. There is a difference between freedom and license. Freedom is when you express yourself and no one is affected one way or another. License is when people are affected by your actions or words. I think this distinction is important. The idea that we live in a free society where we can do or say whatever we want whenever we want is a willful interpretation. Our words and actions matter. Treat all women as they are. Equal, brilliant, talented, driven, capable ... Look for the best in all and encourage all. If you've ever been on a team of any kind you'll understand that everyone must be respected and happy for the greater good of the team. We as humans in music need to realize that women make team studio better, and enhance and teach us men things we don't have access to because of the nature of the male experience. Open your eyes, be smart, think before you speak and keep the golden rule close. Celebrate the amazing women around you and do everything in your power to learn from them.

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man whom quit music
May 24, 2017 5:35pm

music sucks because it's full of dudes who think they have something to say

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John Cooper
May 24, 2017 6:51pm

In reply to not a lad:

Jesus, dude... you think women are the reason you aren't successful? Wipe the foam off your nasty mouth and go work at your craft.

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thingypsy
May 24, 2017 9:34pm

In reply to man whom quit music:

This was a wild read! Just the energy of all these arguments show this is a great topic. I have been in bands where I wanted to hire a girl for backing vox and had the leader guitar player of the band give me exactly what the misogynists on the list have been hurling on here. It's basically the same as the Christians thinking there is something debased and witchy about women. It's Patriarchy plain and simple. So boring, and these dudes just keep spitting out words like "cuck" and snowflake and think that somehow is a zinger! I hope that way of thinking dies out soon, get out of the way! I have felt way more musical mojo or power coming from female singers than from guys, in the secular and church world, how could that one poster say men are better at music and listen to more music? Wow, we are really seeing the Naked Lunch now, what is on the end of everyone's fork, and it is mostly misogyny and racism.

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Brian
May 24, 2017 11:51pm

Great article, Grace! Too bad about the macho/conservative snowflake/alt-right mansplaining from lunkheads who don't know what it's like being a woman, let alone a woman in the music industry, or in any male-dominated industry that is partially made up of macho, misdirected vermin much like those who make negative comments here. I'm sure they're all writing you nasty emails as well. Sad little keyboard warriors/bullies.

"The editors of this site were in agreement with the author of this piece that, for once, the comments sections should be left on and essentially unmediated to reveal - i)Why we often feel we have to turn them off and ii)To prove the necessity of this opinion piece in the first place"

And now we know why

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May 25, 2017 12:21am

Grace you live in the most open progressive culture humanity has ever created. If you want to make an argument about womens rights it should be for those who have none. Most people reading this article, including me, have no idea who you are. Now all we know about is you think you're opressed. You might have recievied less critical comments had you taken this oppertunity to write an article about your personal efforts to extend rights to other women who genuinely have none. I have no idea what that article you didn't choose to write looks like, but, I'm sure you do. Put on a show, write a song, make a video whatever and send the proceeds to a charity that supports women in, say Saudi Arabia where opression of women is a real problem with measurable harms. Be the change you want to see. We have enough people complaining about thier own feelings. You live in paradise Grace, don't take that for granted.

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Annelise
May 25, 2017 12:59am

Grace, when I read your article I suddenly realized I wasn't alone. With over 20 years in this business, I can relate to much of what you've felt. So thank you thank you for this. And now that I've read the comments, I need to add how brave I think you are to take all of this fucking shit on behalf of women in this industry.

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RIP MUSIC
May 25, 2017 4:01am

In reply to :

The misogynists taking the time to respond to this article are beyond pathetic.

Truly groundbreaking music will never be made by those with conservative values. If your abilities as a musician or engineer are threatened by opportunities for women within the industry, you are talentless and have nothing to add to culture or society.

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Rich Aitken
May 25, 2017 6:10am

In reply to Grace Banks:

Exactly. I've noticed the same in a couple of other awards experiments too. This isn't just the music industry - it permeates many ents areas.

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Rich Aitken
May 25, 2017 6:14am

In reply to Mate:

I'm old enough, experienced enough and have a big enough track record in the industry to shout "male privilege". Have some kids and witness the fallout against your daughters almost daily. Sexism is real is perpetuated by the lack of support from us chaps.

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Rich Aitken
May 25, 2017 6:19am

In reply to Jonny Chinchen:

Johnny, that is utter nonsense. Most music is listened to by men? What garbage? The "stars" are all men? Are you kidding?
Its the "artisan elite" section that has become male dominated precisely because of the idea that women may not express in arts - its an age old issue dating back hundreds of years. Women have always struggled in the arts because men MAKE them struggle. Now - we are a much better class of males than our thuggish ancestors; we don't act that way BUT the attitudes still pervade.

I've worked in this industry for 26 years and I've seen the sneering attitudes of a minority of men towards women... but, like racist issues too, too many don't address it. I've worked on a couple of gigs with Sylvia Massey and I can assure most of the male production staff around... she'd kick their asses in talent and vibe any day and STILL I know she is harassed despite being at the top of the game.

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Rich Aitken
May 25, 2017 6:21am

In reply to Dante :

Blasé ruash off!!? Really? Brilliant. How awesome of you...... yeuch

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Rich Aitken
May 25, 2017 6:24am

In reply to Mate:

hey. Ass hat. Know why there were no women in coal mines? Because the male dominated decision makers DECIDED that they cant do the job. Same as it was with pilots for many years... Judge people on their abilities.... not their gender or sex.

Grace has highlighted something most of us are aware of. A minority of male centred twats tarnish the rest of us with a sexist reputation. Thanks a lot buddy.

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K.E
May 25, 2017 11:15am

In reply to WhiteCanadianGuy:

Your point about the top 5 Canadian albums being fronted by women artists is noted, however, take a look at the gender of the production teams creating these same top 5 albums, and it will tell a different story. The people fronting the acts may all be women, but the producers, engineers and musicians are overwhelmingly men. This is the barrier. This is the result of systemic exclusion.

And I respectfully add that while Chris Cornell's death is heartbreaking and a tragedy, please do not conflate it with the issues being discussed in this article. Perhaps I did not get your point, but your comment suggests that Chris Cornell's despair was somehow related to the state of men and women in music industry, which is something we do not know and is a reach to correlate.

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Karyn
May 25, 2017 11:42am

Thank you for your article, Grace. It affirms my fifteen years experience in the business as an artist and producer of my own work. It is good to know that I am not alone in my feelings.

One minor example that dissuaded me from going more into the production side of the industry: early on in my career I attended a digital beats production course at a music school where I was one of two females in a class of twenty. On the second or third class, I remember walking in to discover someone had done a crude drawing on the chalkboard of an erect penis and balls. Only piss on the walls could have more clearly marked the territory as a male space. The teacher (male) did nothing to address this (well, he chuckled and said "come on, guys"). The only reason the image was removed was so that he could write lesson notes on the board.

You may tell me that boys will be boys, but you know what? Fuck that. I did not feel welcome or safe in that classroom. It was aggression and it was directed towards me and the other woman in the class. And even if it was a matter of them "forgetting" we were there and being prankish and stupid, it still felt threatening and had no business being in a class of soon-to-be music professionals.

I finished that course and a few others with the same classmates, but in the end the cumulative effect of this kind of repeated subtle aggression resulted in me opting out of taking more producing / engineering classes. Instead I learned what I could privately and while in studio making my own records. It was a subconscious decision, but when I reflect on it I realize it is because I did not want to subject myself to more of that crap.

And before you tell me to stop whining and suck it up or before you tell me it was just one stupid twat who was being a silly boy, allow me to preemptively say fuck you. I know my experiences. I know what I have had to put up with over the years, and it pisses me off. I have produced four records of my own and know what the fuck I'm talking about. And yes I am swearing a lot for a reason. Because I want you to know I am not squeamish. I am angry.

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Steve
May 25, 2017 1:01pm

Great article, well done !

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Audio Guru
May 25, 2017 3:16pm

In reply to :

"You might have recievied less critical comments had you taken this oppertunity to write an article about your personal efforts to extend rights to other women who genuinely have none."

My friend, you are missing the point. This isn't an article about Sharia Law in some backwards country, or some ancient African tribal rules against women. This is a specifically-targeted article about latent sexism in the music production industry. If you're not interested in the topic, then just don't comment. This isn't the place to be projecting your biases. They don't fit here. We ALL know that women are oppressed in myriad ways around the world.

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Laura
May 25, 2017 8:17pm

In reply to Audio Guru:

THANK YOU. My thoughts exactly.

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Neil Pickles
May 25, 2017 8:29pm

Nice article and I have seen this in action, as an educator and professional in this field, the concept that men are somehow intrinsically "better" is just for want of a better word "bollocks". What is true is that in any subject or field if it is dominated by one sex the other one is "put off" by the kind of issues described. This applies equally to men who want to be teachers (lower years) or nurses, here in the UK. People just immediately make bad assumptions about them "It's a job for women, women are better" etc. On an interesting note this job "allocation" bias based on gender can vary depending on the country your in. I've seen the patronising attitude described in action at live venues to female Mon and FOH and in recording studios. I've been guilty of "Mansplaining". Personally I'd love a more balanced work space as a different perspective is brought to the table and that can help creativity. It's also taken a while to get role models that the next generation can aspire to maybe that could be part of the issue I can't think of any female engineers (not artists) per say from the 60s/70s "She did that and so can I" inspires, that's no longer an issue in mastering you have Mandy Parnell and Emily Lazer, in engineering you have great Producers like Trina Shoemaker and Sylvia Massy who have a blazed a trail for the up and coming next gen and they (that generation) are out there right now in greater numbers so they'll do wonders too and the roll model list will increase Grace, Marta, Manon, Fiona et all (just 4 I can think of). Those 4 examples (Massy et al) have done records that speak for themselves and I suspect are bigger and better than anyone posting on this comments page (myself included). What I've never really got about the people who are so venomously against this article is why are they so afraid of women? If it's all just a load of bollocks why protest so much? If they're so secure in their abilities what's the problem? The people bandying terms like "snowflake" around seem to be a bit "sensitive" to me and maybe want to get out from behind their keyboards once in a while and hang out with some real women. Oh on another point Bob Ludwig never had to put up with the kind of stuff posted in comments under a photo of Emily Lazar ever.

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Thorn March
May 26, 2017 12:34am

In reply to Mate:

Oh Pumpkin. No one said you don't have to work at all if you have a "dick and balls", just that it's infinitely more difficult if you don't.

Also, 4% of coal miners are women. You might notice that's almost the same percentage quoted in the article as being audio engineers. So, you think there are the (essentially) same amount of female audio engineers as there are coal miners, which would list both as 0%. So there's obviously something to the idea that women are being poorly represented in the audio field.

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Steve Newton
May 26, 2017 4:58am

Come on guys, you can do better than this. Grace isn't "whining", She's highlighting a very real problem within the industry.

I'm a male audio engineer. Never has a musician walked into a studio or venue, seen me behind the console and doubted my abilities based on my gender. Its never happened and it never will but it happens to female audio engineers even though they are as equally skilled and talented.
On the other side of things, almost every female musician I know has a story of a male audio engineer mansplaining to them or assuming that they don't know how to use their own gear.

Comments like "the best music is made by men" are total crap. Many of the best musicians I personally know are women. When I discover new music that I get excited about it is often made by women or has some female involvement. I know several female audio engineers who are very skilled, talented and do great work. Attitudes need to change because there's a lot of talent out there and a lot those talented people aren't men.

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Randi Warne
1 day ago

A long time ago, in 1913. Dr. Almroth Wright wrote about how women should have their own groups, clubs, whatever, because men do not like working with them. Women make men uncomfortable just by being, He granted that woman (or a WOG) might be sufficiently competent to be included, but they needed to understand it was "on suffrance", a special privilege, the exception that proves the rule. This is an old song, cat spray everywhere.

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Vicky
1 hour ago

In reply to Grace Banks:

Fantastic article Grace. I was shocked by the horrible/unnecessary comments by people who have completely missed the point and highlight exactly how harsh it can be working in a male dominated industry. I hope you can ignore them and be confident that most of the people who read your article found it interesting, thought provoking and didn't feel the need to thrust a ridiculous diatribe on yourself and unsuspecting readers.

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